Wednesday, October 19, 2011

Just a collection of anti-creationist sentiment

The time has some for Summaries on the thread, My huge problem with creationist thinking, a thread that I've generally ignored as it doesn't interest me at all. The summaries are somewhat interesting, however, so I went and read the opening post plus a few that followed it. The OP is about how there are many different creationisms and it's unfair to impose one over another, even racist to do so. On such a topic you can be sure that the First Amendment was invoked many times to claim that America is a secular nation and not a Christian nation and that no one religion should be allowed to dominate.

Here's a summation by Omnivorous in Message 327
My main problem with creationism is the compulsion that creationists both suffer and seek to impose: that their story of origins is literally correct and must be taught to children in public schools.
Well, there was a time in America, in the UK, in Europe in general, when the Bible was the foundation of all education, of children and in the universities. How far we've come since then. It was also the foundation when the First Amendment was written, and it remained the foundation for many years afterward because the First Amendment was meant to PROTECT religion, specifically the Christian religion, not abolish it. But alas, a secular revisionist mindset now aggressively misuses it and hardly anyone knows how to object.
I don't really care about it otherwise. I don't care about the difficulties presented by debate with creationists because there is no debate with creationists.

Whatever line of approach a reasoning person takes, the reply remains essentially the same--God showed me the way and told me to spread the word by any means necessary. Creationists are the jihadists of discourse, and I just don't care.
From a fine long history of Christian tlhought in the development of civilization to ... this. Not that today's creationism is that great a representation of our illustrious history, I need to add.
The creationist approach to debate is repetition. Creationists reject science, and reason won't persuade them to do otherwise: the irony of rejecting science's methodology while enjoying its benisons is matched only by possessing an evolved brain that they refuse to use for anything other than superstition.

But I don't care about that, either. My problem is not with creationist thought, but creationist action.
A big fat lie. Western science owes everything to Christian thought, and creationists do not reject science, only the fake science that supports evolution.

Then Dr. A in message 326, first complaining about a particular poster:
He soon reverted to form, though, with mere whining about evolution and statements such as: "For me it does not matter which creation model is correct, as long as none of my ancestors were apes."
It matters a LOT which creation model is correct, sad that there are creationists who think otherwise. As for having an ape type for an ancestor that never bothered me before I was a Christian, but what DID bother me was the fact that it became an excuse to treat human beings as mere animals, and it seems to me that attitude has had far-reaching negative consequences on human society.
I suppose credit should be given to IamJoseph, who produced the foolowing staggering monstrous falsehood as a reason for his partiality to Genesis: "Genesis, unlike other ancient writings, includes names, places, dates, numbers, rivers, mountains, geneologies ..." OK, it's a load of cobblers, nor would it be a convincing argument even if it was true, but it is a reason. Credit where credit is due.
I don't want to get into this as it's not an argument I would pursue myself, but while IamJoseph usually has little to say I can agree with in this case I think he's right. He just didn't go far enough explaining what he means. Genesis has historically accurate information in other words while other creation myths really are myths. I'm sure Dr A would dispute the claim of historical accuracy even with evidentiary support, of course, but he'd be wrong.
The difficulty of answering the question stems directly from the nature of creationist apologetics. 99% of creationism is not, nor ever has been, an attempt to validate creationism. No-one's out there trying to find evidence that snakes could once talk, or that fish were created four days after light.
These things do not impinge on the scientific questions. The Bible contains many things that pertain only to God and not to the playing out of His natural laws on this planet.
Creationism goes: "Evolution is wrong because [insert common creationist error here]. Therefore ... magic!" And even if this line of reasoning was correct, there would be no reason to infer any particular brand of magic, nor even that the magician should be of the order of being that we would classify as a god.
he doesn't care to be accurate apparently. Much of Creationism DOES address science and attempts to stick to scientific issues and leave the Bible out of it, which is a perfectly valid approach even though Kurt Wise considers it to be devious. It isn't at all, most scientific principles can be discussed without reference to the Bible. Perhaps they shouldn't be, it's something imposed on creationists by establishment science, and there was a time when nobody had a problem referring to the Bible when discussing science. They may not have been right in their understanding, but whenever they understood some phenomenon to be an effect of the Flood they had no problem saying so -- because western civilization used to be Christian.
This explains why some people have given up on creationism in general and advocated ID. ID might be defined as that subset of creationism which consists only of saying: "Evolution is wrong because [insert common creationist error here]. Therefore ... magic! Oh, or maybe space aliens if a judge is listening." (Making ID the only idea in the history of ever which has tried to gain intellectual respectability by invoking space aliens.)
I'm almost surprised at Dr. A that he would descend to such a comment. ID spends most of its time trying to demonstrate that complex biological systems had to be created by an intelligent agency.
Even so, ID is still partial in a way that would be unwarranted by the IDists own (overt) premises: for example, when did you ever see an IDist use the phrase "designer or designers"? Arguably, then, their rhetoric still discriminates without scientific basis in favor of monotheists over polytheists.
So far have we degenerated from our Christian past we aren't allowed to favor the Christian God in anything. This is of course why the west is deteriorating and will go on deteriorating, but those who don't see the handwriting on the wall will of course explain it some other way -- probably make it the fault of Christians.

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